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I'm going to primarily confine myself to the Hobbit and contemporary texts for this, just so that there's no doubt.
First of all, and as I mentioned in a comment, there is the name of the sword Orcrist, which Tolkien translates as "Goblin Cleaver". What may not be immediately apparent is that "Goblin Cleaver" is actually a direct translation from Sindarin, which was at the time "Gnomish" of Orcrist. There are two elements in the name, with "Orc" clearly translating as "Goblin" and thus leaving -rist as "Cleaver". This translation of -rist is actually quite old, going back at least to the Etymologies of the s, which are published in HoME5 and are contemporaneous with the Hobbit:.
Orcrist therefore translates as "Goblin Cleaver" and "Goblin" is therefore a translation of "Orc". No less an authority than Master Elrond confirms this:. As an aside: Glamdring "Foe Hammer" uses an element from another name for Orcs, Glam, from "Glamhoth", "yelling horde", so the use of Elvish languages here is consistent rather than casual.
Now, Gondolin was a sealed city, and the only time that it's army ever came out was for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The Fall of Gondolin was unexpected though prophesised so it's too much of a stretch to imagine anyone forging swords in explicit anticipation of that. So it's quite clear that the "Goblin-wars" which Elrond refers to here were the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and by emendation to the Quenta Noldorinwa the later story of the foundation of Gondolin before the Battle had already emerged by this time see HoME4.
However, every contemporary account of the Battle mentions "Orcs", not "Goblins" as the primary foe, so again it's definitive - the "Goblin-wars" of the Hobbit were a great Battle against Orcs. Finally, and again going back to the Quenta Noldorinwa of the s, we have the following in an early passage:. The hordes of the Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts of hatred. Glamhoth, people of hate, the Gnomes have called them. Goblins may they be called , but in ancient days they were strong and cruel and fell.
Is it valid to use the Quenta Noldorinwa in support of this? I believe so, yes. I think you need to bear in mind that The Hobbit was not originally part of Tolkien's legendarium, but was, essentially, a take on classic fairy stories. As a tale for children the use of goblin would be consistent, as I'd imagine most children would have some idea of what the word meant as opposed to orc. Similarly the elves seem closer to the fae fairies than the elves we see in Lord of the Rings and elsewhere.
It wasn't until he started writing the Lord of the Rings that Tolkien decided that The Hobbit was set in the same universe as the Silmarillion, at which point it would make sense that goblins and orcs are the same thing.
As for goblins The Hobbit not liking daylight and orcs LotR not caring, that's not actually right. The orcs in LotR dislike the sun, but the uruk-hai don't care. Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?
Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts! Presumably if the orcs could climb the walls like spiders then they could easily get past it but it's only the balrog, who walks straight through, that can chase them. If you noticed The Hobbit had Goblins but not Orcs. That tells me that Tolkien just decided to change the name from goblin to orc.
So Tolkien had probably already decided that orc was another term for goblin in The Hobbit. At most one may have been a more general term than the other. In the Hobbit, most mentions are of goblins, while in the Lord of the Rings, most mentions are of orcs.
In the Book of Lost Tales and other earlier writings both terms appear, and are often used synonymously. There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.
So yes, goblins and orcs are variant sub-races of the larger orc-kind. But confusion still arises based on the inconsistent usage in the legendarium.
Here are the differences between Orcs, Goblin and Uruk-hai. It starts with the knowledge of their creation in the Silmarillion i. The Goblins, as far as I can tell are Cave Orcs, i. Orcs that over the ages of living in caves, developed an aversion to sunlight. Thus their skin turned black when they went out from Saruman into the daylight after their creation but because of their Orc and man genes they possess, the sun does not destroy them.
This is the understanding that I've come to after long studying the Histories and Lore of this beloved mythology. Thank you, I hope this information helps. I believe, as with many races and cultures here on the real earth, people tend to pigeon hole groups of people into the same slot just because of outward similarities when in fact they have nothing to do with each other.
Tolkien, I believe, with an eye on making his world believable , allowed the creatures of Middle Earth to suffer from the same racial bias and ignorance and consider all things Orcish, Goblinish or simply different depending on their cultural dialect as being one and the same. He never says goblins were once Elves, but does clearly state, through other characters, that Orcs were once Elves and that, to me along with clear cut characteristic differences ,is the definitive connection. Several individuals are described both as "Orc" and as "goblin".
These include Azog "Azog the Goblin"; "a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile and strong" , Grishnakh described as both an Orc and a goblin in "The Uruk-hai" and almost certainly Ugluk "a large black orc" and then what is almost certainly his head - and one of his Uruk-hai followers' heads if not - "a great goblin head". All of those examples show that goblins and Orcs are synonymous, and that there is no distinction based on size: Azog, Grishnakh "short" but "very broad" and the Isengard Uruk-hai are all "goblins" and larger-than-normal Orcs.
On top of this, George MacDonald Fraser author of the Flashman books describes in his memoirs how he and his fellow sub-editors at the Glasgow Herald wrote to Tolkien to ask whether Orcs and goblins were identical.
Tolkien confirmed that they were. I've seen and read the back and forth and, of course, read the books and the foreword in the Hobbit. Best interpretation I can come to is a macro vs. A "goblin" is the equivalent of saying "human. Yet an "Orc" is the racial class similar to "Caucasian. In that instance, the term "goblin" could apply to the goblin-town goblins as well as those in Moria, the Orcs, and even the Uruk-hai.
For my interpretation, this solves many questions. It even explains why Orc is capitalized as is Uruk-hai yet goblin is not. We capitalize Caucasian and Latin and Nubian, yet do not capitalize human. Old Bilbo called them Goblins, but whatever the name, I despise the vile creatures.
They are two different words for the same kind of creatures. It's Peter Jackson's fault that people think of them as different creatures; in Tolkien's writings the two terms have always been used interchangeably. Orc and Goblin clearly refer to the same species. In The Hobbit Gandalf warned Bilbo that traveling north of Mirkwood would take them close to the Grey Mountains full of "goblins, hob goblins, and orcs of the worst description". But since various individuals are called both orcs and goblins and others are just called goblins or orcs, it is hard to tell if orc and goblin are totally equivalent, or one is a subcategory of the other, or if they are two different categories that sometimes overlap making some persons members of both groups, or whatever.
What seems certain is that in The Hobbit members of that species are usually called goblins, in Lord of the Rings members of that species are usually called orcs, and in stories of the Elder days Tolkien tended to replace goblin with orc over time.
Lo" from the poetic line: "Lo, the poor Indian, So it is probable that Tolkien used both goblin and orc to avoid constantly using the same term for the enemy soldiers. It is possible that sometimes Tolkien intended a distinction of some type between goblin and orc, but there is no proof that he ever did or what that hypothetical distinction or distinctions would have been.
I am almost certain that goblin and orc are totally equivalent. We can think of goblin as an English translation of the Westron word orc, for example. But if there is some not very obvious difference between goblin and orc, one might be an ethnic term and one an occupational term.
For examples, you sometimes read that not all Vikings were evil. But that is incorrect. There is no ethnic term Viking. The animated Goblins appearing in this film are large, putrid green, bestial creatures. They are far bulkier than what one normally expects for a Goblin, being either hugely muscular or fat.
They also had bulbous toad-like heads featuring tusks, lupine ears, canine-like noses, and even horns. This animated adaptation attempted to explain to viewers the identification of goblins with orcs.
Early in the movie, Sam is heard thinking, "Orcs in the tower. Old Bilbo called them goblins. Whatever the name, I loathe the vile creatures. In the Peter Jackson movie The Fellowship of the Ring , the Goblins have overrun the dwarven colony in Moria long before the events of the movie.
When the Fellowship passes through the abandoned Dwarf city of Dwarrowdelf, Pippin accidentally alerts the Goblins to their presence, causing a fight to break out in Balin's Tomb. In this instance, their main weapon appears to be a Cave Troll, which has to be brought down by the whole Fellowship, but the entire force is wiped out by the end of the battle. Unfortunately for them, even more Goblins intercept them in one of Dwarrowdelf's great halls, emerging from cracks in the floor and holes in the ceiling to aid their comrades.
Trapped in a sea of Goblins, the Fellowship could only prepare for death, but the evil creatures suddenly paused as a menacing roar echoed in the distance. As a distant hall lit with a fiery orange glow, the Goblins inexplicably fled in all directions, leaving the Fellowship to wonder at their fortune — as well as at what was coming next: Durin's Bane.
In the book, Orcs are more effective fighters than in the film adaptation. It was an Orc chieftain who stabbed Frodo in the original story, rather than the Cave Troll shown in the movie, and Sam was also injured by another Orc. Haldir tells the Fellowship that Orcs will pursue enemies for long distances, even during the day, to avenge the death of a chieftain.
Good question, sadly no, there were no goblins. The mystical creatures involved were somewhat limited, and Tolken thought plain creatures would not fit his story.
Answer by John There were goblins; they are closely related to the orcs. The figure most prominently in The Hobbit, which is the prequel to the Lord of the Rings saga. Answer by wilsonace Yes,the orcs actually were goblins.
They were called by both names,depending on who was speaking. The term,goblin was used more in The Hobbit. Security code is wrong! Please try again! Question by Latha Were there goblins in lord of the rings? Answer by Bronagh In the Mines of Moria, the Fellowship is encircled by hundreds of goblins, which flee when the Balrog awakes.
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